Talk:Marc Chagall

birth-place

Marc was born in Vitebsk (Віцебск) city. Now the city is in Republic Belarus. At Chagal time they (both the city and Belarus) belonged to Russian Imperia. I think, it's correct to put:

• Born Moishe Zakharovich Shagalov (Moishe Segal) in Vitebsk, Belarus (at that time: in the Russian Empire), ...

--ZmiLa 13:13, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree with the Segal part. His name was Shagalov, and it later became Chagall. It was never Segal. JackofOz 03:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe the name Segal is accurate and should be restored. According to this review of a recent biography from JBooks and these notes from an exhibition of his etchings, Chagall was born Segal. This Yiddish name was then Russianized into Shagalov (the composition of his Russian given names, Moshe + the patronymic Zakharovich, seems to be a translation of his Hebrew name, which would most likely have been Moshe ben Zechariah...), before finally evolving into the French-sounding Chagall. Defrosted 07:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

We need to say what his legal name was at the time of his birth. With the 3 versions we have at the moment, I'm still confused.

• Maybe Segal was his family's traditional Jewish name, but if the law required a Russianised name, then that was the name he had according to the law. We should give prominence to that. We currently give 2 versions of the Russian name, Шагалаў (= Šahałaŭ), and Shagalov. Which one is it?

  The former version is Belarusian not Russian. The Russian spelling is Shagalov (Cyrillic: Шагалов). --Ghirla ^-трёп- 10:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

• Or is it the case that his birth name was Segal, and only later became Russianised? If so, we should say that. JackofOz 10:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

  Russian Wiki gives his official surname as Segalov (Cyrillic: Сегалов). Isn't it confusing? --Ghirla ^-трёп- 10:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe he should have changed his name to Tchaikovsky.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 23:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

By this logic, Adam Mickiewicz should also be listed as "Russian Poet". Belarus did not fall under Russian Empire in a peaceful manner. Claiming Marc Chagall as Russian is promotion of Colonialism! Seizing land with an army and then poaching all cultural value and claiming it as yours is WRONG! Citizenship is one thing, Nationality is completely different! The way some of you are suggesting to post his birthplace - insinuates zero difference between Russia and Belarus. Trill ille (talk) 14:44, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Malevich was born in Kyiv, but Kyiv at that time was part of the Russian empire. But still, in the English version of his page, he is a Ukrainian artist (according to MoMA as well). And it’s 100% correct. We must change the Chagall page and replace Russian with Belarusian. Marina Anderson-Zubkova (talk) 21:12, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Nationality

We must change the Chagall page and replace Russian with Belarusian. Malevich was born in Kyiv, but Kyiv at that time was part of the Russian empire. But still, in the English version of his page, he is a Ukrainian artist (according to MoMA as well). And it’s 100% correct. Marina Anderson-Zubkova (talk) 21:23, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Chagall's birthday

A convincing amount of evidence indicates that Marc Chagall was born on July 7th, not July 6th. According to an article in the New York Times, Chagall himself celebrated his 90th birthday on July 7th, 1977: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/07/09/archives/happy-birthday-sung-to-chagall.html Another NYT article also referred to July 7th as his birthday: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/11/26/archives/chagall-at-90-is-a-growing-artist.html A comprehensive biography also states that July 7th was Chagall's birthday: Chagall: A Biography, by Jackie Wullschlager (2008). His birth date should, I think, be corrected in this Wikipedia entry. Gallium31 (talk) 03:05, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Nationality

@Vanjagenije, both Chagall's Belarusian and Jewish nationality were important parts of his background, and per WP:ETHNICITY, should be included - Chagall is regarded as iconic in Belarus, and both his Belarusian and Jewish background formed a significant part of his art and life in general. This is reflected in the sources that were provided, as well as the Marc Chagall Museum's biography of Chagall, as seen here.

Another comparison is Francysk Skaryna, who, despite being from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, is regarded as Belarusian rather than Lithuanian, and Isaac Bashevis Singer, whose Jewish life also formed a significant part of his work, and who is regarded as "Polish-born" despite having likewise spent the vast majority of his professional career outside of Poland. Much like Singer with Poland, Chagall's experiences as a Belarusian Jew, rather than simply a Jew in the Russian Empire, shaped his work - this is something which is also reflected in provided sources. Therefore, per WP:ETHNICITY, it is entirely appropriate to refer to him as a Belarusian Jewish artist.

Mupper-san (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mupper-san: But, Chagall was not of Belarussian ethnicity. Which source says he was of Belarussian ethnicity? Vanjagenije (talk) 17:28, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

First of all, and with respect, it's Belarusian, rather than Belarussian - the latter term is outdated and regarded as in poor taste. Secondly, it's not a matter of ethnicity, but "region or territory"; again, to compare, Singer was born in the Russian Empire, rather than Poland, and as far as I'm aware, he, too, was of solely Ashkenazi ethnicity, and both lived on the territories of their countries' interwar-era independent republics (Chagall resided in the Belarusian People's Republic, where he was active among communists, though the extent of his political involvement ended before the BSSR's establishment.) It's important to note that though the Belarusian People's Republic didn't survive as long as the Second Polish Republic, it did, in fact, exist, and Chagall lived there.

Both also left an impact on the cultures of modern-day countries in which they were born more than the former Russian Empire as a whole (though to the extent of my knowledge, Singer's impact on Polish culture does not match Chagall's on Belarusian culture). While it's also not worth much, Chagall also wrote in a form of Trasianka, according to Nasha Niva (see here).

Mupper-san (talk) 17:49, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, I will note that among those who knew him personally, Ilya Ehrenburg described Chagall as the "poet of Belarusian shtetls" (see People, Years, Life: Memoirs, Volume 1, page 184).

Mupper-san (talk) 17:57, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

@Vanjagenije I apologise for the mention, but it has been over a month and despite the fact that I have provided multiple sources of Chagall being referred to as Belarusian both by contemporaries and in modern text, as in the sources originally in my edit. Additionally, I have provided evidence that Chagall spoke Belarusian (to an extent) and was active in Belarus while it existed as an independent state. Alternatively, I think that there is an argument for describing Chagall as "Soviet-French", but even the sources provided currently do not describe Chagall as "Russian" and, to the extent of my knowledge, he did not regard himself as a Russian during his life.

Mupper-san (talk) 04:47, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Another thing is that even in Russian-language sources (see here, here, here) Chagall is described as "Russian, Belarusian, and French", representing the view that Chagall was an artist of Belarus despite the fact that most of his life was spent not as a citizen of the Belarusian People's Republic, but other countries. Other sources, such as the BBC, refer to him simply as being Belarusian.

Therefore, it is hardly a fringe viewpoint to describe Chagall as Belarusian in Russian or English literature, and, on the contrary, denying that he was Belarusian does not reflect the position held by scholars, the Musée Marc Chagall, the Jewish Museum and Tolerance Center, and news sources both from Chagall's time (see here, 1973) and since. I simply don't see any justification for refusing to include Belarusian, as this is not a matter of ethnicity, and the sources provided, again, do not contradict this claim (except for a Russian letter translated by Harshav in which Chagall's words are translated to mean "also Russian" - a translation which, while correct, does not note that Chagall uses the term Русский, which in this case refers to Chagall and Alexandre Benois as both being Russophones, rather than Russians by nationality. (For the original Russian version, see here)

Mupper-san (talk) 05:18, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Use of the term "Israel" in section "The Bible illustrations"

I have replaced the initial "Israel" with "Mandatory Palestine", but I can't with good conscience replace the other uses, as they contain paraphrases of what Chagall said. I think in some places "Eretz Yisrael" might be good, in others "Palestine", or "the Levant" are better. Still in other cases, I'd have to know what Chagall actually said.

But whatever it is replaced with, it is historically incorrect to talk about "Israel", without any qualifiers, before 1948. As this whole section takes place in 1931 or thereabouts, the use of "Israel" is wrong, and should be replaced. --91.64.59.91 (talk) 15:30, 5 February 2024 (UTC)